My point wasn’t to compare rally numbers but simply that the local Iranian numbers behind the green wave protests signify a significant event in politics and for contemporary Iran. As I mentioned on my blog, this is no revolution, but this is a significant event that may change the political establishment. All roads lead to Qom as you said above.

Of course it’s impossible to understand a culture perfectly. I spent a year living in the Middle East and have a lot of muslim friends, I’ve also spent a fair bit of time studying various things that relate to Islam, politics in the region, etc… but my knowledge/understanding is far form perfect (albeit better than your average Westerner). Much as, I’m sure, yours is also imperfect when it comes to a place like Iran. Since Iran and Pakistan are very different (though they also share much) we must all live with the fact that our knowledge is imperfect and discuss based on what we know, and learn from each other.

But certainly I am willing to listen.

I think the question of despotic leaders is a complicated one. I personally believe most of the current problems in the MidEast are rooted in Western colonialism during the post WW1 period and the nation-states that were fashioned for no other reason than to serve Western interests, filled with despotic Western-backed leaders and maintained in the same way. But hey that’s just my opinion.

When u call for informed debate, i think you should be objective also.. and should also realize that even though u aren’t a neo hawk westerner who wants to kill us for being Muslims we do realize the fact that u want to engage in discussion which is more than what i can say for your entire leadership we as Muslims are sick of people interfering in our countries telling us what to do..taking away our lives by sanctions and condemning us as if we are responsible for every asshole with a beard.

U can be Aussie or whatever u are or feel you are but please try to understand a culture and the ground reality before u judge. As you have seen when we do the same it aint so sweet.

We can discuss anything as long as you are willing to listen as well…the green revolution will have no result.. because the people will only go a certain distance, if muslims were willing to go the whole way no despot would ever rule us… that is the truth

Faisal,
your argument which boils down to “their president vs. your president” is a terrible argument. Firstly, I’m Australian, so Obama is definitely not my president. Secondly, it’s irrelevant, I subscribe to no universal national identity and refuse to align myself to any of these constructed geopolitical entities known as “countries” with any loyalty.
I will be the first to tell you that my Government is far from perfect and the same goes for Obama. You would be an idiot if you locked yourself into a default position of either support or opposition to one person such as Obama. You noticed on my blog that I support his stance on Iran. However I deeply abhor the drone attacks, among many other things he does.
However the fact that Obama is a “bad leader” or at least an imperfect one is irrelevant. National leaders will always do bad things and will never be perfect because the system of international relations that governs the world, the world order, geopolitical realism is deeply flawed and fails to take human life into account.
We are talking about Ahmadinejad. Obama being bad or good does not make Ahmadinejad any better. The fact that i happen to come from “the West” and happen to be represented by imperfect and often bad governments should not mean my opinion on Ahmadinejad’s governance is invalid. I am making a simple point: killing your own people on the streets, ruling by repression and force, is unjust and un-Islamic.

As for the previous election, there were allegations of vote-rigging and it may have also been rigged but they key difference is voter turnout, it was much lower and people were much more despondent then about the election. Voter turnout for this election was 84% which is fairly unprecedented in Iran and in many countries, and there was a large wave of euphoria about this election in Iran, thats why the anger spilt over onto the streets. What we see on twitter is maybe hundreds of Iranians represented max. It is merely a report for the rest of the world. The streets of Tehran (and the many other cities which saw protests) are a better gauge of how the people feel and if we take the conservative estimates, hundreds of thousands of people turned out to protest. You can’t ignore that.

@ alex If Allegations of rigging are what it takes to define the charecter of a leader and government then no American should ever act as an election appraiser on their own conscience because the most massive fraud was held in the vote counting in Florida by Jeb bush when Bubba frist came into power. is that specific enough? I am not a west hater or anti American at all but it pains me to see you exhorting the qualities of a good Muslim leader while your leader stands at the biggest pulpit of this world with a mega phone and shouts rhetoric of change while our countrymen’s funerals are bombed by drones “on the suspicion that al qaeda was attending them” 80 people died in a drone attack yesterday man, twitter that? that’s twice or more than that of what has happened in Iran till now…80 people your (closet muslim) leader does not seem that just to me either.

@ KK The outbursts have happened before as well, but last time around twitter was not present for people to claim that a national disaster has happened when life goes on as usual in Iran

i am glad someone mentioned the lawyers movement in Pakistan, it was the biggest sham brought about digitally in the history of our country. How come none of those blogs screaming judicial victory now scream for the judiciary to do something….or anything? Where is the great judicial revolution now?

one thing to keep in mind is that while a lot of us feel that the media blows things out of proportion, that feeling is also not an objective one.

a great example is the lawyers movement. sitting in karachi it felt weird for the media to portray it as a national thing. no one in our city seemed to care. then i traveled through punjab where the issue meant a lot lot more. and i realised that while it still may not be as big as the media might portray it, it was phenomenally bigger than what i had thought it to be.

its simple to say bbc cnn etc are milking it for all its worth. but as alex pointed out, why has such an outburst never happened before? why the need for force? i detect an insecure state here. not an incorrect one maybe, but definitely an insecure one.

- do not paint “The West” with a broad brush. While the West may not like Ahmadinejad, he has hardly been a “thorn in the side”. The nuclear program and Iran’s foreign policy is entirely out of his control, that is the domain of the head-of-state and commander in chief, Ayatollah Khamenei. Everyone knows whether its Ahmadinejad or Moussavi, nothing will change on that front. And neither will denunciations of Israel, thats an essential part of the platform for any Iranian leader. Furthermore, it should be noted that Israel stated their preferred candidate is in fact Ahmadinejad for that very reason. Nothing under Moussavi would change for Israel but Ahmadinejad’s crazy rhetoric makes it easier to find supporters to fight against him among the international community.
So yeah double standards are indeed a US specialty but each case should be assessed on its merits.

- We need to make informed conclusion. There is no hard evidence of vote rigging, however there is also no hard evidence of a free & fair election. We can assume neither of these and we should respect the response of those in Iran who choose to contest it. The loser calling foul may be common in Pakistan but it is not in Iran, this is the first time in 30 years that the people have risen up like this and its because a lot has changed for them to be unhappy with. Aly B, can you tell me why you think Ahmadinejad has been good for Iran or what specifically he has done well? For example, economic management is one of the major jobs of the President, and Iran has experienced a windfall of revenue from oil & gas prices going up during A’Nejads term… however the people have gotten poorer, the standard of living declined and the gap between rich/poor has widened. Where is this money going? In fact there have been massive allegations of corruption levelled against A’nejad’s regime for some time now (from within Iran). If the theory that he is popular with the poor holds, why has life not improved for them?

Guys, I know that Ahmadinejad is loved in many places because he supposedly stands up to the US but you guys need to think outside the box as much as Westerners do. Ahmadinejad is all rhetoric. He has zero control over anything that could actually hurt The West. None. Zip. Squat. Anyone can stand up with a megaphone on a soapbox and yell down with The Great Satan but Iran’s nuclear deterrent is being organised by Khamenei.

And Faisal, re: democracy in the US form applying to the Muslim world, you may well be right. But if my knowledge of Islam is correct, the man who rules the ummah must do so justly and he must protect the muslims in his care, not murder them and beat them on the streets without mercy for women, children or the elderly. A muslim leader who does that doesn’t seem very just to me.